In attendance:

From SpiderIsland: Rusty Tucker

Sysops: Jim Smith, Bill Gram-Reefer, Bob Nunn, Daniel O'Leary, Ken Sutherland,

Rusty Tucker hola!
Jim Smith joined the chat.
Rusty Tucker Welcome to the chat Jim!
Bill Gram-Reefer joined the chat.
Rusty Tucker Welcome to the chat Bill!
Bill Gram-Reefer : hi
Bill Gram-Reefer : been the super busy PR guy as of late neglecting my sysop duties of course
Rusty Tucker how it goes?
Rusty Tucker sounds good!
Bill Gram-Reefer : pays some of the bills, but not at the point of being able to get a new PowerBook out of petty cash.
Rusty Tucker :)
Bill Gram-Reefer : where were you for 9 days RT, camping?
Rusty Tucker I'll be right back!
Bill Gram-Reefer : Hi Jim
Bob Nunn joined the chat.
Rusty Tucker Welcome to the chat Bob!
Bill Gram-Reefer : Hi Bob
Bob Nunn : Hey Bill
Bill Gram-Reefer : RT went to the lu we think
Rusty Tucker phone call :(
Bill Gram-Reefer : topic for today?
Daniel O'Leary joined the chat.
Rusty Tucker Welcome to the chat Daniel!
Daniel O'Leary left the chat.
Rusty Tucker c-ya Daniel O'Leary
Daniel O'Leary joined the chat.
Rusty Tucker Welcome to the chat Daniel!
Daniel O'Leary : did you get my email RT on um problems?
Rusty Tucker just a sec
Rusty Tucker I don't know, which UM problems?
Rusty Tucker the script problems?
Bill Gram-Reefer : Anyone hear anything about Jobs' satellite speech to Mac Expo this a.m.
Rusty Tucker I think that AS just breaks sometimes :(
Daniel O'Leary : Add User Script slows sys to a crawl, then the sys dies.
Jim Smith2 joined the chat.
Rusty Tucker Welcome to the chat Jim!
Daniel O'Leary : locks up hard...
Rusty Tucker We took a few days off, went to the Grand Canyon and then on to relatives in New Mexico.
Rusty Tucker I had a similar problem with my new user script, but the latest version doesn't bomb
Daniel O'Leary : What is the change over the original version.
Daniel O'Leary : I do not see a problem until I import users from a file.
Rusty Tucker it took " -- if not (pubFolder exists) then out
Rusty Tucker and just make a new folder anyway
Daniel O'Leary : so you do not check for a pub folder?
Rusty Tucker nope -
Rusty Tucker if its already there, I'll get an untitled folder as ca-ca
Daniel O'Leary : Hmm. My script essentially does a copy without changing data that already exists.
Rusty Tucker but that's better than crashing
Daniel O'Leary : It does the copy without replace recursively.
Daniel O'Leary : So that each subordinate item is checked, then copied if it is not present.
Rusty Tucker ok, try it without checking first
Daniel O'Leary : taking out the check would be a disaster for my script!
Daniel O'Leary : Users existing data would be replaced.
Daniel O'Leary : remember, my script creates pub, and webspace.
Rusty Tucker You may need to write a real program for that then, or possibly use Frontier?
Daniel O'Leary : Argh another scripting language!!!!
Jim Smith left the chat.
Rusty Tucker c-ya Jim Smith
Rusty Tucker or get the newer version of AppleScript with 8.5
Bill Gram-Reefer : RT what's the deal with Frontier going commercial (again)?
Rusty Tucker Philanthropy wears thin when you're using real $
Daniel O'Leary : Hehe.
Bill Gram-Reefer : or is scripting finally finding a place to live?
Bob Nunn : If you ain't having fun or making money then why are you doing it?
Bill Gram-Reefer : your wife told you to
Rusty Tucker :)
Daniel O'Leary : I do it to "advance the state of the art"
Bob Nunn : Forgot that one :-)
Daniel O'Leary : Simple.
Bob Nunn : To the detriment of Microsoft, but then you would be having fun...
Rusty Tucker That's easy as long as you've got a "real job" too, but User Land is Dave's real job.
Daniel O'Leary : Micro$oft is NOT art
Bill Gram-Reefer : So what's in the commercial product that wasn't in Frontier freeware?
Rusty Tucker Speaking of state of the art, I see that either IDG or Dataquest is predicting that Lnix will have a 4.6% mkt. share by 2001.
Daniel O'Leary : Linux is growing.
Rusty Tucker and MacOS just 1.9% or something
Rusty Tucker pretty wild!
Bill Gram-Reefer : how can freeware have marketshare?
Daniel O'Leary : I think they have underestimated Linux.
Daniel O'Leary : Severely underestimated Linux.
Rusty Tucker seats are seats, whether paid for or not
Daniel O'Leary : Easy BGR, that many M$ sites Uninstalled.
Rusty Tucker + Linux is also shrink wrap now ( Redhat, Caldera )
Daniel O'Leary : and SlackWare3
Rusty Tucker about $99 at Microcenter
Daniel O'Leary : heh
Bill Gram-Reefer : And they keep saying UNIX is dead
Rusty Tucker OSX will have a Unix soul as well
Daniel O'Leary : "THEY" are wrong.
Bob Nunn : The MIS boys like it since they are replacing mainframes with it and it is obtuse enough to keep the peasants out.
Rusty Tucker :) -- I think that's partly right.
Bill Gram-Reefer : not withstanding the delays, I just don't see NT grabbing people's enterprises the way MS has hoped it would
Daniel O'Leary : My site at work has a pair of "Born to Run Unix" Harley-D skull logos on it.
Bob Nunn : Job Security is an important thing. If anyone could do it then where would they be??
Bill Gram-Reefer : From what I hear from the high-end prepress world, if you try to print a 500 MB file with 3 other users on a NT server it goes belly up.
Bill Gram-Reefer : that doesn;t sound like scalability to me
Rusty Tucker MS is selling the sh*t out of NT workstations tho....
Daniel O'Leary : Don't try that at home, folks
Bob Nunn : I think you should sell certifications for Telefinder. Give us a test and then let us put up a logo and a certificate on our wall.
Daniel O'Leary : They can be quickly converted to Linux, RT>..
Bill Gram-Reefer : Isn't that what FC did?
Bob Nunn : I was thinking about all the people going for NT certification. Seems like a good racket to me.
Bill Gram-Reefer : Idiots thought they were competing with Lotus Notes instead of the Internet
Rusty Tucker yes :)
Rusty Tucker just like the old NetWare certifications
Daniel O'Leary : Hehe, what a racket... Can I "challenge" the exam???
Bob Nunn : I could add that to my resume. Impress the un-initiated
Bill Gram-Reefer : those were the days
Rusty Tucker and a logo for your biz card
Bill Gram-Reefer : now you got to be XML, DHTML certified for it to count
Daniel O'Leary : XML is not even a stable standard yet.
Bill Gram-Reefer : that never stopped W3C
Daniel O'Leary : W3's job is to press forward...
Daniel O'Leary : Industry's task is to implement mature technology...
Bill Gram-Reefer : fight the future?
Bob Nunn : and keep Microsoft at bay?
Daniel O'Leary : Pressing FWD = "Keep M$ at bay", I suppose.... Hehe
Daniel O'Leary : I think M$ set back personal computing 20 years.
Bill Gram-Reefer : New topic: USB modems?
Daniel O'Leary : No USB inputs here.
Rusty Tucker who's got 'em? Diamonds?
Rusty Tucker supra?
Bill Gram-Reefer : well you can buy a Keyspan PCI card
Daniel O'Leary : Need to get a line on Appletalk-USB printer.
Daniel O'Leary : or conversion device, if one exists...
Daniel O'Leary : What do iMacs print to? How do they share files with older Macs?
Bill Gram-Reefer : there'll be plenty like poppies in California
Daniel O'Leary : share....
Rusty Tucker Internet
Rusty Tucker and Ethernet DO
Daniel O'Leary : Internet alone is not a solution RT.
Bob Nunn : Net - would be ideal for our office for example. Don't want worm ridden pestilent floppies.
Daniel O'Leary : Older Macs don't have ENET either.
Rusty Tucker that's a problem with old Macs
Bill Gram-Reefer : I once found a NIC for my Centris 610, worked fine
Bob Nunn : Nothing that $20 won't fix.
Daniel O'Leary : Part of the market is upgrading of old Macs... Apple has provided no way to migrate the data off.
Bill Gram-Reefer : got to find it first
Daniel O'Leary : Dumb idea.
Bob Nunn : Pull it to the server in a folder then copy it back.
Daniel O'Leary : BBS's server BN?
Daniel O'Leary : and 1 GB?
Daniel O'Leary : I do not think so.
Daniel O'Leary : DUMB idea, providing no migration path.
Bob Nunn : The office's folder. Yes I move folders that size at night.
Rusty Tucker This is an entry level Mac, not an upgrade version.
Daniel O'Leary : Not to your avg. ISP, BN.
Bob Nunn : I really agree I think they should have put a drive in it anyway.
Daniel O'Leary : Some of the potential customers, would not agree with you RT.
Daniel O'Leary : They look at it as a replacement for their Performas, classics, etc.
Rusty Tucker Hey, Apple can;t give a dam about existing guys, they gotta grab the guys buying Dell and Gateways
Daniel O'Leary : Dells and GWs come with floppies...
Rusty Tucker If they don't get those customers, its game over
Bob Nunn : Some of those will find their way up on our office desks. But not being able to hook a zip, scanner etc. really limits even that.
Daniel O'Leary : and serial ports.
Rusty Tucker floppies suck, good riddance, they are useless
Rusty Tucker serial ports too, if you've got ENET and built in modem, that's all you need.
Daniel O'Leary : Should have put an AppleTalk port on it.
Bob Nunn : What about the 120 SuperDrives. Read both floppies and their 120 meg counterparts. Sounded good anyway.
Ken Sutherland joined the chat.
Rusty Tucker Welcome to the chat Ken!
Bill Gram-Reefer : I'd rather have 100BaseT NIC than AppleTalk any day
Rusty Tucker local talk sucks more than floppies, get a USB zip
Daniel O'Leary : Built-in Modem... Built-in obsolescence
Daniel O'Leary : I agree, but still need it to get your data from box A (NO ENET) to box B
Daniel O'Leary : Cannot use any old printers either...
Rusty Tucker so how do you do that on a PC? floppies?
Bill Gram-Reefer : That's what BBS are for , no?
Daniel O'Leary : LapLink RT.
Daniel O'Leary : 230K serial-based file copy.
Ken Sutherland : IR
Bill Gram-Reefer : oooh..IR
Daniel O'Leary : The customer will be really peeved when they see they cannot make use of their buddies media.
Daniel O'Leary : And ISP's will be peeved when they see the attempt to move that gig+ overnight.
Bob Nunn : Email Attachments at the office?
Daniel O'Leary : I do not think Apple really thought this thru.
Ken Sutherland : radio net?
Bill Gram-Reefer : I think in two years it will be how to get a 3 Mb file transfer, can't be on floppy, if everyone has DSL or hi-speed wireless in 2-5 years
Bob Nunn : Perhaps they were a little too futuristic in their planning?
Daniel O'Leary : Customer is going to want a box they can use now, not in 3-5.
Daniel O'Leary : I like the idea, but think they blew the implementation.
Bill Gram-Reefer : use fro what Tank Girl or work?
Daniel O'Leary : no bridge to fielded technology for the avg. user.
Bob Nunn : Schools and Offices they can probably make them work, but a network is really a requirement for it to be practical today.
Rusty Tucker I haven't even SEEN a floppy in 24 mos. I don't know why its a big deal.
Daniel O'Leary : BN, those potential customers will want a certain compatibility with existing assets without an mandatory infrastructure upgrade.
Daniel O'Leary : You have a LAN RT.
Daniel O'Leary : Not all users do.
Rusty Tucker Everything for consumers is CD ROM.
Rusty Tucker You gotta cut somewhere to get the low cost.
Daniel O'Leary : Commercial SW, Yes, everything, no.
Bill Gram-Reefer : like what?
Daniel O'Leary : How much does a compatible hard disk port or Floppy port cost.
Daniel O'Leary : Hell, you cannot even move your SCSI drives to it.
Bill Gram-Reefer : what's the last thing you transferred via sneaker net and floppy?
Rusty Tucker then get a DIFFERENT MAC
Daniel O'Leary : That is my point RT.
Rusty Tucker that's what choice is all about
Daniel O'Leary : I move stuff via AT to CPU's that only have it.
Rusty Tucker this is a low end , entry level Mac.
Daniel O'Leary : I move stuff via ENET to CPU's that have it.
Bill Gram-Reefer : anyone wanting lower should look to TV
Daniel O'Leary : I move BIG STUFF via SCSI disk swaps and CD ROM.
Rusty Tucker I use ZIP, ENET or email.
Bob Nunn : Most of my windows users up here still use disks even if I have to format them on my Mac for them to bring us materials since they don't know where the g drive is and how to go about moving the files.
Daniel O'Leary : I also use Jaz, considering Zip to be too small (grin)
Bill Gram-Reefer : Tonight I will give a copy of TF user to someone on floppy because they don't know how to download the program. That level of user who is so dumb will buy the wrong thing anyhow
Bob Nunn : I still pass mine out at the user group meetings.
Daniel O'Leary : To the uninformed, It does not compete well with a fully functional PC for the same or less money...
Bill Gram-Reefer : present company excluded
Bob Nunn : Getting harder to put them on a disk though...
Bill Gram-Reefer : got to take out docs
Rusty Tucker I don't think it fits anymore
Bill Gram-Reefer : we have ways RT
Daniel O'Leary : They can read them online BGR.
Rusty Tucker just get a bunch of ROMs burned at .50
Daniel O'Leary : once they get connected.
Bill Gram-Reefer : If
Bill Gram-Reefer : real estate brokers are the worst
Bill Gram-Reefer : dumb dumb and dumber
Rusty Tucker Speaking of that, when is Valley RE gonna crash?
Bill Gram-Reefer : then they want you to show them how to boot windows!
Daniel O'Leary : Self-extracting segmented archive on floppies...mmmm..mmm
Daniel O'Leary : been there, hated that.
Bill Gram-Reefer : After the big one
Rusty Tucker Seems like a Cupertino POS is close to $1M now
Daniel O'Leary : POS?
Daniel O'Leary : Plain ole shak?
Bob Nunn : Point of Sale
Rusty Tucker as in: piece of...
Daniel O'Leary : hahaha
Bob Nunn : ;)
Bill Gram-Reefer : It's a cultural wasteland, too
Daniel O'Leary : Guess a house with a pool and back yard on about an acre is outtasite, eh?
Rusty Tucker right, that's what I hate most about it :)
Bill Gram-Reefer : If you can live with a commute go over the hill to Santa Cruz or North up to Walnut Creek
Rusty Tucker same with all of No Cal tho BGR :)
Daniel O'Leary : I visited you guys... thisnk I stay east.
Bill Gram-Reefer : I probably couldn;t get 130K for 3/1 and back yard and could commute to SV in an hour
Daniel O'Leary : I still have a view of a nice field, am 15 min. from work.
Bob Nunn : RT will we see b2 of the TF4.0 Windoze soon? Attachment thingy licked?
Daniel O'Leary : an no traffic like what I saw while I was there last time.
Rusty Tucker oh yeah, I need to post that one
Bill Gram-Reefer : the only traffic I have is tripping over the cat to answer the phone at 7 a.m.
Rusty Tucker I was working on something else and got side tracked. the attachments work now
Bob Nunn : Would like to have that for next club meeting. A few have to use that at work and want to get their mail. The real estate people are mostly on 95 now.
Bill Gram-Reefer : something to be said for home officing, but you get lonely and end up talking to guys in a chat room (???)
Ken Sutherland : rusty, upgrade request
Rusty Tucker :) right on BGR
Daniel O'Leary : I have a problem with Post-MK Crashmail node not coming back online after release from MK.
Bill Gram-Reefer : gotstogobye
Daniel O'Leary : Is still idle.
Bill Gram-Reefer left the chat.
Rusty Tucker c-ya Bill Gram-Reefer
Bob Nunn : Me Too. Send up the logs please. Try to make it Thurs.
Daniel O'Leary : MK released it an hour and 2 min. ago.
Bob Nunn left the chat.
Rusty Tucker c-ya Bob Nunn
Rusty Tucker KO
Rusty Tucker how do you know DO?
Daniel O'Leary : timestamp in MK window.
Ken Sutherland : RT, TF user topic subscription, you you upgrade it so it can relink after a duff topic has been repaired, also PLEASE add it to the PC client also
Rusty Tucker what doe sit say in the MK window?
Daniel O'Leary : 01:03:46 PM: Decompressing: 0000FC32.TU1 01:04:11 PM: Now processing packet file: 5A252332.PKT 01:06:00 PM: Released port
Daniel O'Leary : Just typed it.
Daniel O'Leary : it is 14:06 now.
Rusty Tucker TeleFinder must not have gotten the event then.
Daniel O'Leary : hmm, what in the world happened to it?!!?
Daniel O'Leary : grin
Rusty Tucker Either MK didn't send it, or it went to the wrong place?
Rusty Tucker is there anything in the TeleFinder log file?
Daniel O'Leary : I will look, Just started the node manually.
Jim Smith2 left the chat.
Rusty Tucker c-ya Jim Smith2
Daniel O'Leary : 07/07/1998 01:01:46 PM - Connection made at 24000 bps. 07/07/1998 01:01:56 PM : FidoNet crashmail detected. 07/07/1998 01:01:56 PM : Launching to accept FidoNet crashmail call. 07/07/1998 01:01:56 PM - Protocol statistics follow: - Packets sent: 0 Kb's sent: 0 - Packets received: 0 Kb's received: 0 - Error count: 0 Reset count: 0 [--------------------------------------------------------------------------] 07/07/1998 01:01:56 PM - Node Server stopped. 07/07/1998 01:06:01 PM - Start Node event received (fidonet), this node ready to go online. 07/07/1998 01:06:01 PM - Node Server started. MacOS thread ref: 128 07/07/1998 01:06:01 PM : FidoNet controlled by SmartDoggie events. 07/07/1998 01:06:01 PM : available memory (K's): 3897 07/07/1998 01:06:01 PM : largest available block (K's): 3897, MacOS thread ref: 128
Rusty Tucker when TeleFinder gets the event it prints
Rusty Tucker - Start Node event received (fidonet)
Daniel O'Leary : That is the last of the log for the dial-up node.
Rusty Tucker unless the GW node window is closed, it will always print that, even if the handler fails to put the node back online.
Daniel O'Leary : Weird... look at the time...
Daniel O'Leary : 1 p.m. AFTER 1:56 PM.
Rusty Tucker oh wait, it says that it should be online
Rusty Tucker 07/07/1998 01:06:01 PM - Start Node event received (fidonet), this node ready to go online.
Daniel O'Leary : it was NOT online.
Rusty Tucker or did you do that?
Rusty Tucker 01:01:56 PM ( 56s )
Daniel O'Leary : I started it at 2:06PM.
Daniel O'Leary : not 1:06 PM.
Daniel O'Leary : An hour is lost somewhere.
Daniel O'Leary : log clock is wrong after the restart.
Daniel O'Leary : Node restart.
Rusty Tucker The other messages print after the node really starts.
Rusty Tucker So that log says it started at 1:06
Daniel O'Leary : It was started by just now, at 2:06.
Daniel O'Leary : by me, just now...
Daniel O'Leary : Weird.
Rusty Tucker I don't know, it looks like MK did it at 106,
Rusty Tucker MK says it did it at 106, and TeleFinder says it got it at 106
Daniel O'Leary : Right. node was idle for an hour after.
Daniel O'Leary : I has to start the node manually at 2:06.
Rusty Tucker maybe that was a different node?
Daniel O'Leary : I only run 1 dialup.
Daniel O'Leary : Weird...
Rusty Tucker Its pretty hard for those messages to be wrong. They're only printed out in one place in the code.
Daniel O'Leary : MK is crashmailing again now...
Rusty Tucker So how many system are still on Fido?
Daniel O'Leary : Many fewer in Zone 1 (US) Europe is growing.
Daniel O'Leary : I get about 40% of the traffic I formerly did.
Daniel O'Leary : This time the node started normally after the CM was complete.
Rusty Tucker see what the log says now
Daniel O'Leary : 07/07/1998 01:06:01 PM : largest available block (K's): 3897, MacOS thread ref: 128 07/07/1998 02:14:40 PM - Device Result: CONNECT 21600 07/07/1998 02:14:40 PM - Connection made at 21600 bps. 07/07/1998 02:14:53 PM : FidoNet crashmail detected. 07/07/1998 02:14:53 PM : Launching to accept FidoNet crashmail call. 07/07/1998 02:14:53 PM - Protocol statistics follow: - Packets sent: 0 Kb's sent: 0 - Packets received: 0 Kb's received: 0 - Error count: 0 Reset count: 0 [--------------------------------------------------------------------------] 07/07/1998 02:14:53 PM - Node Server stopped. 07/07/1998 02:18:13 PM - Start Node event received (fidonet), this node ready to go online. 07/07/1998 02:18:14 PM - Node Server started. MacOS thread ref: 130 07/07/1998 02:18:14 PM : FidoNet controlled by SmartDoggie events. 07/07/1998 02:18:14 PM : available memory (K's): 3863 07/07/1998 02:18:14 PM : largest available block (K's): 3863, MacOS thread ref: 130
Daniel O'Leary : Note the 1 hr gap...
Rusty Tucker is that unusual?
Daniel O'Leary : What was unusual was that I started the node an hour later than the log said.
Daniel O'Leary : the next CM activity is correctly logged, time-wise.
Rusty Tucker not possible for those messages to be off like that
Daniel O'Leary : I thin kit logged the event, but did not come back up.
Rusty Tucker unless somebody's effn with the system clock
Daniel O'Leary : Nope.
Daniel O'Leary : Nope.. System clock gets synched with an atomic every 15 min..
Daniel O'Leary : Could a delay exist between the log action and actual start, because the node really did not come back online until I started it.
Daniel O'Leary : It's status was "Idle" until I started it.
Ken Sutherland : I have seen this before wit mk
Rusty Tucker nope - the memory message happens right before the listen
Rusty Tucker no other place to go
Daniel O'Leary : If TF logged the event, then MK had to be finished and handoff was complete.
Daniel O'Leary : Right?
Rusty Tucker right
Daniel O'Leary : And the MK log windows says essentially that.
Rusty Tucker TeleFinder logged the event, and the "go online" process too
Rusty Tucker so maybe the display was incorrect?
Daniel O'Leary : I do not think so, because the modem RDY light was not one.
Daniel O'Leary : Not on.
Rusty Tucker don't know - a MacsBug log would be good, if you could catch it in the right thread... that's hit or miss
Daniel O'Leary : System Modem init removes DTR in between calls and "busy outs" the modem in a few places...
Rusty Tucker I gotta run
Ken Sutherland : night night
Daniel O'Leary : I will try the next time I catch it... I really suspect that OS 8.x is not as friendly to some BGR processes as it needs to be.
Ken Sutherland left the chat.
Rusty Tucker c-ya Ken Sutherland
Rusty Tucker will be back on Thurs.