Text of TeleFinder Chat from Friday, February 13, 1998 - 11 AM PST.
In attendance:
From Spider Island: Rusty Tucker,
Sysops: Jim Smith, Bob Nunn, Michael Davidson, ewik, Jim DeHaven, Bill Gram-Reefer, Ken Sutherland, Donald McHose
Jim Smith: <<joined the chat>>
Rusty Tucker: <<joined the chat>>
Bob Nunn: <<joined the chat>>
Rusty Tucker: hi!
Bob Nunn: Greetings!
Bob Nunn: I see you have been busy.
Michael Davidson: <<joined the chat>>
Rusty Tucker: a little :)
Bob Nunn: Hey MD
Michael Davidson: hi guys
Rusty Tucker: I'm trying to decide which direction to take the charting..
Rusty Tucker: I'll either make it into a class library for C++, a flexible plug-in for charting any data, or ??
Bob Nunn: See how most people are displaying and make up a basic group. What stats are important to most of your customers?
Rusty Tucker: Good Q, I did Server Hits because it tells me if my link is up, or if we been linked to with a news item.
Rusty Tucker: I've been looking at "Analog" to see if some if that data might be interesting
Rusty Tucker: And also some of Suzie's output might be nice to see graphically
ewik: <<joined the chat>>
ewik: hi all
Bob Nunn: I agree and like it. Business users may want to know how many clik thru's, that type of thing. I think some of Suzie would be good as well. I display Top Uploader because I want to encourage it on the bbs side.
Rusty Tucker: like top uploaders...?
Rusty Tucker: ah yeah, click thru's per day? hr?
Bob Nunn: Not sure since I don't use it. But if I was making money from it I would be happy to see it graphed out.
Rusty Tucker: That's not so general since it's tied to specific URLs
Michael Davidson: Rusty, is the data going to be gathered in a tab delimited form so that it can be exported to ANY charting program
Rusty Tucker: yes, its called the WebServer log:)
Rusty Tucker: and there are lots of programs that read it.
Michael Davidson: :), but I mean even data similar to Suzie's
Rusty Tucker: There are the "caller log" and "file transfer stats"
Michael Davidson: (not just web data)
Rusty Tucker: those are BBS files
Rusty Tucker: Suzie mostly talks to User Manager.
Jim DeHaven: <<joined the chat>>
Bill Gram-Reefer: <<joined the chat>>
Michael Davidson: Is this charting going to take over the job of Suzie too, I guess is what I'm after, or is it focused on the Web stats only?
Rusty Tucker: We're talking about Graphs and Data today
Rusty Tucker: That was my original proposition
Rusty Tucker: where should the graphing go from here?
Bill Gram-Reefer: OK, I have question about the plugins
Ken Sutherland: <<joined the chat>>
ewik: does the hit counter chart hits to the server only or can it chart hits to a page?
Bill Gram-Reefer: like that one
Rusty Tucker: One thought is to make the BBS logs more like the web server log
Michael Davidson: Let's have the option to graph everything!!!!
Ken Sutherland: morning all
ewik: morning ken
Rusty Tucker: cheerio Ken
Michael Davidson: I like consistency, so make the logs the same...then graphing both would be easier to implement
Bill Gram-Reefer: RT, I see you reposted the plugins...what changes?
Bill Gram-Reefer: you mean make the BBS log like the hit chart, make it graphical?
Rusty Tucker: Yes, there's a note in the "Announce" thread. Fixed some bugs, prettied up the chart.
Jim DeHaven: <<joined the chat>>
Michael Davidson: Rusty, I think a nice way to go would be to have the option of logging both Web and BBS data in the same format and in a Log folder, which a TF Charter app would display on demand.
Rusty Tucker: No, I meant make "file transfer stats" more like the webserver.log
Jim DeHaven: <<left the chat>>
Rusty Tucker: include full paths, instead of just file name and so on
Bill Gram-Reefer: Rusty, why not make a plug-in like the Mandelbrot for prepress guys that want to test a color. they could enter Pantone or Lab or Cie color numbers and then see what it looks like
Rusty Tucker: I think that may already exist?
Michael Davidson: I'm not real familiar with Web log (yet) but I can't see why you shouldn't go for consistency among logs
Bill Gram-Reefer: sort of like color picker or several quark xts but none yet as web plugin
Rusty Tucker: MD- you should download "analog" and try it out. You'll see what info it can summarize from the log.
Michael Davidson: Ok.
Rusty Tucker: hmm, pantone to web color?
Bill Gram-Reefer: supposed to work
Bill Gram-Reefer: according to pantone
Rusty Tucker: I wonder if that have a list of PMS to RGB Colors somewhere?
Bill Gram-Reefer: I can check with my guys in Germany who are up to their knees in color management issues, they might have some good ideas
Bob Nunn: What is wrong with Netscape 4's graphic display. Did they try to even the playing field by toning down the Macs so they look like PC's?
Ken Sutherland: <<joined the chat>>
Michael Davidson: Has the problem with thumbnail views been solved for non-Mac viewers?
ewik: They have a PMS to RGB book you can buy ant a art supply store
ewik: I have PMS to CMYK
Bill Gram-Reefer: the color plug-in brings up other ideas: like the map/location (enter lat/longitude), no end of things that could be graphed from data
Ken Sutherland: sounds like fun
Bob Nunn: RT - my photo preview PI has stopped working since I installed the other plug ins. Is there a limit or perhaps an overlap?
ewik: I have noticed that every different graphics app. represents PMS colors differently
Rusty Tucker: BN - there shouldn't be.
Rusty Tucker: maybe the preview PI expired?
Ken Sutherland: <<left the chat>>
Bob Nunn: I haven't experimented but it is near the bottom of the pile in the order. that is possible as well though.
Michael Davidson: O, so there is a solution to the thumbnail problem...was that by Jonathan?
Bill Gram-Reefer: so back to making bbs log graphical like the hit chart...was that what you meant RT?
Bob Nunn: Yep, I had it up and set up the a set up special templates. Works good.
Rusty Tucker: Jon has made a Plug-in that converts the thumbnails to JPEGs
Ken Sutherland: its not the first time we have had a plug stop after a tf update
Ken Sutherland: tut tut
Michael Davidson: groovy...lot's of sysops could find that useful I bet
Bob Nunn: Yes I definitely do. For business sites as well.
Rusty Tucker: Not graphical Bill, just similar tab delimited data
Ken Sutherland: may release public beta soon
Rusty Tucker: I could capture and chart BBS hits per hour if you find it useful.
Rusty Tucker: Right now I'm not tracking it internally
Michael Davidson: I see no reason, other than RT's time, not to tab delimit bbs logs in the same format, so that they too can be displayed graphically
Ken Sutherland: OAT users should get a update in the next week or so, we have updated it, fixed a few bugs and the web File search is fixed
Ken Sutherland: web mail plugin now updates the user manager's user stats
Michael Davidson: Have you considered a OAT lite like we talked about Ken, or not....good to see you're staying with OAT development
Ken Sutherland: oat lite is in development,. also a new way of using the keycode
Michael Davidson: YEA!!!!! I think it might help pull in some more revenue and get sysops hooked and want the full version!!
Ken Sutherland: we are now running several list accounts on highlander, 'hdsweb'.'oatsupport', and 'suggestions'
Michael Davidson: can you give the full address for subscribing Ken?
Bob Nunn: I take it we can log on highlander for subscribe info? Or will you leave a message in the conf.
Ken Sutherland: hdsweb@highlander, oatsupport@highlander.net.uk, future@highlander.net.uk
Michael Davidson: Rusty, did you decide to dump Emailer idea after what I wrote to you? (or even before :) )
Rusty Tucker: :)
Michael Davidson: Would the PWD server be useful in other ways for TF Server?
Ken Sutherland: i need recommendation for a multi Pop3 client, i use Claris but it does not work with tf well, i hate eudora, any other ideas
Rusty Tucker: PWD server's let you change your POP3 password via Eudora
Bob Nunn: RT - the main request I have had for info on the BBS side was the last 10 user list. Seems like people are always interested in who has been on the system. I really haven't had much in requests for other types of information other than to take it off so they don't have to wait for it to load.
Michael Davidson: and Emailer too RT
Ken Sutherland: bob, its back
Bill Gram-Reefer: good idea BN
Rusty Tucker: W/ TF you can just do it via the web
Ken Sutherland: will send you a test copy very soon (grin)
Rusty Tucker: Yes, that's a good one Bob.
Rusty Tucker: The BBS needs some sort of Plug-in capability for that kind of thing
Michael Davidson: Ken, why doesn't emailer work well with TF?
Ken Sutherland: automan is working again, i think, it logs the last 3 days callers or a max. of 25
Ken Sutherland: then u get email from your own board it remover the space between names, i have v2.0v3, the last and final release, it still does not work ok
Michael Davidson: So, back to PWD server, wouldn't that be useful for TF to have
Rusty Tucker: Does it filter out "gateway" callers Ken?
Ken Sutherland: /
Ken Sutherland: ?
Ken Sutherland: all my internet mail is fine
Ken Sutherland: just local
Rusty Tucker: like my system, at any given moment the last caller is usually a TFNet system
Rusty Tucker: ie not a person calling
Michael Davidson: doesn't it put an "_" in place of space Ken?
Ken Sutherland: automan removes tf-tf logons
Rusty Tucker: KS -great!
Ken Sutherland: mail from John smith becomes johnsmith
Rusty Tucker: Emailer works just fine with TeleFinder!
Rusty Tucker: When you input your return address, you need to include the _, that's all
Ken Sutherland: well tell me WHAT TO F*CKING DO, please please,,,,,,, where
Rusty Tucker: calm down ! :)
Ken Sutherland: have you talked to Claris recently
Ken Sutherland: talk about a sad bunch not interested in the future
Rusty Tucker: what happened to those setup GIFs?
Michael Davidson: when a local bbs user sends email, that is the only time the problem arises?
Rusty Tucker: I guess I lost them
Ken Sutherland: yup
Bob Nunn: I still have them and will put them up RT.
Rusty Tucker: When a local user sends email, Mail Server fills the _ in automatically
Michael Davidson: yeah, that's what I thought RT, so when does Emailer remove the _
Ken Sutherland: talk about Claris and getting frustrated, i was on the phone for 40 minutes, and that was to the states
Rusty Tucker: it doesn't MD
Ken Sutherland: please put me out of my misery
Michael Davidson: so where is Ken's problem coming from?
ewik: <<left the chat>>
Michael Davidson: You can't use Emailer to mail to TF so it's not from Emailer POP3 users sending mail.
Rusty Tucker: Ken, we went through this a couple weeks ago and I tried it here and sent your the RFC822 file proving that mailserver did it properly/
Ken Sutherland: am starting a paper to send to apple to restart development of the emailer, i think its great and am angry they have killed it in favor of MicroShit's IE4
Michael Davidson: Who killed Emailer...what, it is so applescriptable...it is wonderful
Ken Sutherland: you tell apple then
Bob Nunn: It's funny my 8.1 disk came in with only Netscape on it...
Ken Sutherland: part of its internal clearout and save $$$$$
Rusty Tucker: It must be something else on your system that's modifying TeleFinder's Email Ken.
Michael Davidson: Mail server does it correct...I don't know where Ken's problems is coming from
Ken Sutherland: my own mac
Donald McHose: <<joined the chat>>
Jim DeHaven: <<left the chat>>
Bill Gram-Reefer: BN, i was told to disconnect any scsi devices before you install 8.1 from CD
Bill Gram-Reefer: possible corruption per apple
Bill Gram-Reefer: then reconnect scsi to reinstall backup files
Michael Davidson: Rusty, would it be a huge pain in the #$@ to have an SMTP gateway that allowed Emailer and Eudora to also send email?
Michael Davidson: to a TF system?
Rusty Tucker: Say what?
Rusty Tucker: That's what the SMTP gateway _does_ do!
Rusty Tucker: BN - Really? no IE?
Michael Davidson: Whoa, I have misunderstood something then. I thought POP3 mailers could only get email, not send it
Rusty Tucker: That wouldn't be much use would it? :)
Rusty Tucker: They send mail via SMTP.
Bob Nunn: No IE. Nutscape 4 with PC colors
Rusty Tucker: The retrieve mail via POP3
Ken Sutherland: would that not open your system for abuse to non bbs users using your site to send junk mail
Rusty Tucker: Anyone having fun with the TF User docs?
Donald McHose: hello all
Ken Sutherland: ?
Ken Sutherland: hi Donald
Bill Gram-Reefer: what kind of files are those?
Bob Nunn: Why did you post the online doc file? Is it fully edited?
Rusty Tucker: You'd have to read the tf.sysops thread..
Bob Nunn: Archimac?
Bill Gram-Reefer: some many threads, so little time
Rusty Tucker: They're the PM6.5 source for the TF User docs
Rusty Tucker: BN - yep
Bill Gram-Reefer: why not post stuff like that as PDF
Ken Sutherland: also a buggered conf area doesn't help, what have i missed
Rusty Tucker: Ken was looking for those docs too I think?
Bob Nunn: Would you like us to make our additions and send them back or what?
Rusty Tucker: BGR - you get the PDF version with TF.
Ken Sutherland: yup, ta, nice to have a site specific user manual
Bob Nunn: Or convert them to html?
Ken Sutherland: indeed
Rusty Tucker: We had a little "uprising" in the conference about "poor docs."
Rusty Tucker: or "wrong format"
Bill Gram-Reefer: ok but didn't understand the PM6.5 docs...which can output to either html or PDF
Ken Sutherland: PM6.5 allows both
Jim DeHaven: <<joined the chat>>
Bill Gram-Reefer: supposedly
Rusty Tucker: right- supposedly :)
Rusty Tucker: So I decided to release the source to the docs, and let folks so what they will with them.
Jim DeHaven: <<left the chat>>
Jim DeHaven: <<joined the chat>>
Rusty Tucker: Bakir would like to translate them to Turkish, and you can't do that from PDF.
Ken Sutherland: true
Bill Gram-Reefer: let the masses have source ? that has the smell of gasoline and a waving red flag
Ken Sutherland: all 50+ pages
Ken Sutherland: a VERY nice idea
Ken Sutherland: why not have a area for users with non English manual
Ken Sutherland: stress the global use of telefinder
Ken Sutherland: sook sook
Donald McHose: excuse me for a sec. what is pm 6.5 , Le manual ?
Bob Nunn: I would probably add them to my web site. I like to have it available for my reference since I can't ever find the printed copy.
Ken Sutherland: PageMaker 6.5
Donald McHose: Thanks
Ken Sutherland: who needs quark
Rusty Tucker: BGR - documentation source only:) lets not get carried away with this!
Ken Sutherland: BTW i c they have a bug release already out
Ken Sutherland: out
Bob Nunn: try more like a fix so you can actually use it.
Ken Sutherland: u used to have German,French and something else available as atf client
Rusty Tucker: they are still there i believe
Ken Sutherland: any chance of updating them
Rusty Tucker: yep, in "International versions" they are prior version.
Ken Sutherland: they refer to 3.5 and 4 i think
Rusty Tucker: I didn't create them, you'll need to find the translators themselves.
Michael Davidson: Rusty, stupid me has another question: must the SMTP gateway be "active" at the time that Emailer sends the mail, or will Mail Server hold it till SMTP goes on (like it does for local internet bound email)?
Donald McHose: Gotta run , kid time.Catch ya'll on the read.thanx Bob-N
Donald McHose: <<left the chat>>
Rusty Tucker: For the most part it would be 90% copy and paste, it's that other 10% that's a b*tch when you only speak English
Rusty Tucker: MD- it must be active so that there is a server there to conduct the SMTP transfer
Ken Sutherland: does the devworld site not have a help app for this
Bob Nunn: Just use one of the computer translators and hope you don't cause an international incident.
Ken Sutherland: have you ever tried the Spanish translator, hehe, what a laugh
Michael Davidson: Yes, there are supposedly great translators that can take English and turn it into German, etc. almost flawlessly.
Jim DeHaven: <<left the chat>>
Michael Davidson: Still would want a real translator to look it over.
Bob Nunn: Unless you are a German that is. Looks like perfect German to use Americans.
Rusty Tucker: LOL
Bob Nunn: We pay big bucks to have our packaging done. But we do it all online now. Have people email or stuff translated back.
Rusty Tucker: shcpiedenze das modemzie?
Bob Nunn: Stick it in your modem?
Bill Gram-Reefer: localization
Bill Gram-Reefer: bye for now
Michael Davidson: If the SMTP is active, does it register itself over AppleTalk too Rusty when you have a POP3 ADSP node open?
Bill Gram-Reefer: <<left the chat>>
Ken Sutherland: yup, night night
Rusty Tucker: there is no connection between the 2 MD
Ken Sutherland: <<left the chat>>
Rusty Tucker: any last q's before we wrap up?
Bob Nunn: See you next Tuesday. Thanks. I have the log.
Rusty Tucker: great!
February 13, 1998
-- ©Copyright 1998, Spider Island Software