---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Text of TeleFinder Chat from Tuesday, September 16, 1997 6 PM PDT. In attendance: From Spider Island: Rusty Tucker, Eric From Highlander: Jonathan Paisley Sysops: Naoki Tsutsui, John Agapitos, Bill Gram-Reefer, Mickael Stark, Donald McHose, Jim S., Bob Nunn, ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rusty Tucker: Hi Naoki! Naoki Tsutsui: Hi Rusty Tucker: Did you have the typhoon near you? Naoki Tsutsui: Yes, Why do you know? John Agapitos: morning Rusty Tucker: Good morning John! Naoki Tsutsui: Now through by Gifu Rusty Tucker: I heard something on the news this morning. John Agapitos: i guess the meeting is almost over?? Rusty Tucker: Just getting started Naoki Tsutsui: Hello John] John Agapitos: oh yeh just checked the time Rusty Tucker: Naoki is from Gifu in Japan, John is from Australia John Agapitos: hell Naoki Naoki Tsutsui: Hello John, Nice meet you! Rusty Tucker: Near Sydney John? John Agapitos: right in the middle John Agapitos: We now refer to Sydney as "the Olympic City" Naoki Tsutsui: Before hear from my Australian friend. Naoki Tsutsui: many people using old Japanese cars , Naoki Tsutsui: Really? John Agapitos: I cant wait to use the Olympic symbols in TF that year! Rusty Tucker: :) Naoki Tsutsui: :) Rusty Tucker: Naoki will have the Winter Olympics this year Naoki Tsutsui: Oh, Calling me. Just wait for minutes. John Agapitos: topic for this evening?? Rusty Tucker: We left off this afternoon just getting into USER VARIABLEs in SPML Rusty Tucker: Bob, you had some real file Questions about it. Rusty Tucker: life i mean Bob Nunn: Well I saw the example but would like to see some other applications of it. I am less imaginative than some Rusty Tucker: The user defined variables first came up from a suggestion from Dab ). Rusty Tucker: Dan 0. Rusty Tucker: There was a 'how to' article in wired re:XSSI - the weak apache version of SPML :) Bob Nunn: Well perhaps Dan will send up a few applications for it. Not many share their SPML code. Rusty Tucker2: ERIC John Agapitos: thanks rusty you just changed my chat profile Rusty Tucker: My evil twin has left the house:) Eric: hey dad Rusty Tucker: Hi, we're having our online chat tonite. Bill Gram-Reefer: how about dem boyz! Rusty Tucker: OK for me, I was 10 for 13 in this weeks pool, out of the money though. Bill Gram-Reefer: I was 11-3, thinking of starting a tout web site Rusty Tucker: Here's the WIRED sample code: Rusty Tucker: Rusty Tucker: The idea is that you can perform testing using #if and set a user variable accordingly Rusty Tucker: then you can use the variable in the rest of the code, rather than retesting. Bill Gram-Reefer: http://www.hotwired.com/webmonkey/geektalk/97/26/index3a.htm Bill Gram-Reefer: I just tried it and got a failed address notice Bill Gram-Reefer: html next time Rusty Tucker: In their example I think they we're setting page specific BGCOLORs for tables or something. Rusty Tucker: and the #included files were able to inherit the same color scheme Jonathan Paisley: [like the mail Plugin ;] Bob Nunn: I did some of that on my homepage menu and in the sysop admin example I set up. Donald McHose: Nice page Bob Bob Nunn: I don't follow how variables can do that though. Thanks Donald Bob Nunn: You assign color codes as a variable and call the variable on the other pages? John Agapitos: what version of tfemailer are you up to Jon? Rusty Tucker: like > Bob Nunn: Now you are cooking. I understand that. Jonathan Paisley: internally, the one 'just after' 0.9b1. This is the email Plugin. Rusty Tucker: prior to that you need to Bob Nunn: I can have the variable populate any area then like you do in a business letter template. Rusty Tucker: yep Bob Nunn: Aha, why didn't you just say so. Rusty Tucker: even randomly choose them, just to keep things interesting! Bob Nunn: Like your banner example? Bill Gram-Reefer: so you could have a random color of the day? Rusty Tucker: yep, that would work Rusty Tucker: or change your scheme to ORANGE and BLACK on Halloween Jonathan Paisley: although you might lose some users that way Bob Nunn: And that would work throughout the site. What about users? Rusty Tucker: Yes, user pages can set their own variables. Jonathan Paisley: How long do these variables persist? Jonathan Paisley: or rather, what's the scope of the variables? Rusty Tucker: they have the lifetime of the page Jonathan Paisley: how about global variables and per-user variables? Jonathan Paisley: can we have them (at some point in the future?) Bob Nunn: You assign the variables where? Anywhere as long as they are read in before they are called? Rusty Tucker: Yes, that's right Bob John Agapitos: this may sound silly but is there a way that we can allow a user to access a site for a limited time? I'm reluctant to allow web access to our library as users may share the password with non members Jonathan Paisley: you could therefore make one SPML file that sets up various variables and then every page on your website could simply include that at the top Rusty Tucker: Globals you can implement via defining a variable in an #include file. Rusty Tucker: beat me! Bob Nunn: That way you would only have to install the variables from one file and only edit one file to make changes. Jonathan Paisley: exactly Jonathan Paisley: The mail Plugin works like this Bob Nunn: See that's the kind of examples I need to see. Rusty Tucker: One other point Rusty Tucker: If you define a user variable, with the same name as a predefined variable, the user variable takes precedence Jonathan Paisley: cool Rusty Tucker: I'll let that sink in a bit Rusty Tucker: if you John Agapitos: who me :-) Bill Gram-Reefer: like, what TF group they are assigned to in UM? Rusty Tucker: Rusty Tucker: if will override whatever the actual USER_AGENT string is . Bob Nunn: So on my log file I would get Stupid Browser instead of Mozilla? Rusty Tucker: That's also true for the FORM field and Header fields. Rusty Tucker: Yep Bob Nunn: So I can make my pages say that my Server is TF5.7 if I want? Rusty Tucker: Yep :) Rusty Tucker: uhh, but not in the reply header, if that's what you mean. Bob Nunn: Adds a whole new meaning to administrative reporting - yep that was it. But that's okay. Rusty Tucker: Just in Bob Nunn: That'll do Rusty Tucker: I think I'll update the 8 ball to use variables, then it can log the answers too. Bob Nunn: Then we can all know who at WebStar really asked if TF is faster :) Rusty Tucker: And know what TeleFinder told them! Bill Gram-Reefer: so you could have a different set of answers for 8 ball according to which browser they were using? Bob Nunn: I have a lot of fun reading the questions. It'll be much better seeing what the answer was. Rusty Tucker: Yes, but that's not a problem for variables to solve Rusty Tucker: You would just make a second test for browser name at the point you've found the matching random number. Eric: TeleFinder Rusty Tucker: At the top of the SPML you could make a detailed check of browser name to simplify the checking later on. Eric: dad Rusty Tucker: That's where variables really shine to speed up the SPML. Rusty Tucker: The browser names are getting so complex, that you might need to make several tests to group them Jonathan Paisley: A built in SPML command with nice heuristics to get an idea of what the browser is would be nice. Rusty Tucker: Especially if you want to use Java Script for example Jonathan Paisley: eg it could tell you simply if its internet explorer or Netscape, what platform [eg mac/win] and which version Jonathan Paisley: You cold even have an internal mini-database of features supported by each version that could be checked by the SPML page Bob Nunn: Is there a list somewhere of what info is available and how to ask for it? other than active.html? Rusty Tucker: somebody could make a nice include file to test all that and set appropriate variables. Jonathan Paisley: ahh yes, that would be true ;) Bob Nunn: and then upload it so I could have it. Rusty Tucker: :) Bob Nunn: :) Bob Nunn: I have often thought that many admin functions would be improved through lasso and FM Jonathan Paisley: Plugin are the way to go! Rusty Tucker: Jon, since we've got many new chatters here tonite, do you want to talk about FTP? Jonathan Paisley: yeah, that might be an idea Donald McHose: Love to here about it. Bob Nunn: How does it compare to Rumpus for example? Bob Nunn: I bet your has cooler screens. Rusty Tucker: a little background: Rusty Tucker: Jon is working on a FTP server Plug-in. Donald McHose: please Rusty Tucker: It will operate using the User Manager database and Access Groups. Rusty Tucker: But he's still working out some of the details of operation. John Agapitos: sounds like he has a lot on his plate Jonathan Paisley: [bob: please make yourself available for private chat!] Jonathan Paisley: It actually works, including all the privileges and things, except you can't upload or download since I haven't implemented that. Jonathan Paisley: I've spent time refining the virtual file system. Rusty Tucker: PERFECT security! Rusty Tucker: Yeah, that's the big part of the work for sure. Bob Nunn: Will it work from aliases, Like the ones already set up for search on OAT? Jonathan Paisley: As suggested by participants in the chat earlier today, I will be implementing access to all users pub folders at addresses like ftp://ftp.domain.com/~user/ which will link to that user's pub folder Bill Gram-Reefer: go on girlfriend Jonathan Paisley: bob: I see what you mean. Currently, it just presents the root level directory as you would get all your items on the BBS desktop in TF/User Bob Nunn: That'll work Bill Gram-Reefer: the "pub" folder specifically? Rusty Tucker: Yes, and that will be OK for anonymous access I think Rusty Tucker: ^ pub Jonathan Paisley: I though I would make it access a directory called 'ftp' inside the 'pub' folder. That way people won't be able to access the likes of your forward.txt or signature.txt (used by the mail Plugin) Bill Gram-Reefer: that's what i was getting at Bill Gram-Reefer: so the files in this ftp folder of the pub folder would have to be in .hqx format or could TF's on-the-fly translation kick-in? Jonathan Paisley: nope, the server fully supports the MACB macbinary extension to FTP, as well as adding '.hqx' or '.bin' to the end of a file to translate it on the fly Jonathan Paisley: So if you use anarchie, Netscape or fetch (or others) it'll be seamless Bill Gram-Reefer: we're having fun now Bill Gram-Reefer: I think many bbs users would like this Bill Gram-Reefer: to be able to establish an ftp site as well as an ftp Rusty Tucker: brb Bob Nunn: Can you drag and drop files into the file area like you can with Netscape 3 and Rumpus? Bob Nunn: I was amazed when I accidentally did this Jonathan Paisley: Depends on your FTP client Donald McHose: Netscape? Bill Gram-Reefer: how will you let admins of these ftp sites set up more secure levels from the anonymous access. I'm thinking interface issues Jonathan Paisley: It all uses TF access groups Jonathan Paisley: You set up a user called 'anonymous' for anon ftp. If this user doesn't exist, anon ftp isn't alowed Rusty Tucker: What if I call your system and make a user named anonymous? Bill Gram-Reefer: Maybe I missed it. Bob Nunn: He is already there and has no access? Jonathan Paisley: that's a good point rusty Bill Gram-Reefer: I have a user named Fred. He has a pub folder. He as an ftp in there that's anonymous. How does that user set up a more secure area cause I don't give Fred access to UM? Jonathan Paisley: but the way it should actually work is that you always have a user called anonymous when you're using the FTP Plugin Jonathan Paisley: If he password for anonymous user is empty then anon access is allowed, otherwise it's disallowed Jonathan Paisley: In fact it works like this for every account, not just anonymous Rusty Tucker: Hmm, I'd make it a little more specific than that. Rusty Tucker: Usually Anon uses Guest as the PW. Eric: Eric Rusty Tucker: Maybe we need either a special check box or access group name. Jonathan Paisley: [while I remember; a few weeks back we were talking about the problem of TF User saving passwords in lab macs. I have written an extension for your settings file/copies of TF user that will wipe out the password once it is used to log on so it has to be reentered. Email me for a copy] Jonathan Paisley: Why does it need to be 'guest' as pw? Jonathan Paisley: I could add in the possibility for empty password or password equal to 'guest' Rusty Tucker: that's just common Rusty Tucker: The idea is to allow access to the user's "pub" folders, right? Rusty Tucker: The rest of the access comes from TF's settings. Jonathan Paisley: yes, exactly Jonathan Paisley: Currently only paths declared as file areas are used Rusty Tucker: So we need a flag that tells your PI if the sysop wishes to allow this for a given user name. Rusty Tucker: And, whether a given user name can have an FTP site. Rusty Tucker: so we need 2 more privs. Jonathan Paisley: yes, that makes sense, but isn't that just 1 priv? Rusty Tucker: Or, overload the meaning of some of the existing ones. Rusty Tucker: One, is this user may have a PUB FTP site Bill Gram-Reefer: gotstogo, good work guys, BYE Rusty Tucker: the other this user may access other user's PUB FTPs Rusty Tucker: see ya Bill! Jonathan Paisley: surely if it's pub FTP you'd want anon access to them? Rusty Tucker: yes, to give, but not to get others Bob Nunn: Can you change the port Jon to allow more privileges for certain levels of users? Bob Nunn: Or does that even make sense? Jonathan Paisley: please explain a bit further Bob Nunn: ON regular served pages you can specify the port if you like so your web bbs pages for example could have more access assigned to them. Jonathan Paisley: but anyone could discover what that port is and use it Bob Nunn: That's true of the web sites as well. It would just keep the honest folks out. Jonathan Paisley: But remember its all based on your access group, so only if you're a sysop would you be able to access the sensitive stuff (assuming your access groups are set up as such) Bob Nunn: I was just thinking about the limited bandwidth that some of us face and perhaps a way to deal with it. Jonathan Paisley: It would be possible to deny access to certain access groups, for example Bob Nunn: That'll do. Can we control the amount of users some way? Jonathan Paisley: Yes, I intend to add a kind of 'max users per access group setting' Rusty Tucker: ooh, that would be nice! Bob Nunn: Yup Yup Rusty Tucker: Guest= 1 Jonathan Paisley: This'll all be accessible once I get the user interface finished (nice list of current users logged on and what they're up to) Jonathan Paisley: hint hint rusty Jonathan Paisley: ;) Rusty Tucker: Actually, here it would be open to all levels. Jonathan Paisley: Folder messages and logon messages are already implemented (same as in Netpresenz, a file called '!Folder Info') Rusty Tucker: Hmm, I guess that means I need to tweak the WSAPI framework :) Jonathan Paisley: heh Bob Nunn: We will have to have some annoying screen telling us the maximum number have users have been reached. Jonathan Paisley: Oh yes "Sorry, the maximum numbers of users in your class has been exceeded" and "You are user number 10 of a possible 20" Jonathan Paisley: etc Bob Nunn: Great.... Donald McHose: That would do Rusty Tucker: Well that should wrap it up for now. Rusty Tucker: Any last q's before we head out? Jonathan Paisley: a reminder: while I remember; a few weeks back we were talking about the problem of TF User saving passwords in lab macs. I have written an extension for your settings file/copies of TF user that will wipe out the password once it is used to log on so it has to be reentered. Email me for a copy Jonathan Paisley: simply paste the resources into the app or settings file with resedit and your away! Bob Nunn: Good deal! Donald McHose: Thanx for the time. See ya'll later Rusty Tucker: See ya! Jonathan Paisley: bya all Bob Nunn: Goodnite! ------------------------------------------------------------------ September 12,1997 -- �Copyright 1997, Spider Island Software