---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Text of TeleFinder Chat from Tuesday, December 9, 1997 11 AM PST. In attendance: From Spider Island: Rusty Tucker, Sysops: Bob Nunn, mikael fredriksson, Daniel Raguse, Bob Wright, Ken Sutherland, Jim Smith, Kevin Shearon, Bill Gram-Reefer, ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Nunn: <> chat logger: <> Rusty Tucker: <> Rusty Tucker: hola! Bob Nunn: hey Rusty Tucker: I think FReC 2 is the real deal, touching up the docs today. Bob Nunn: I agree so far. Seems stable and fast no problems and I had heavy traffic last night Bob Nunn: I need to start running the web log again and get an idea of my daily hits. Rusty Tucker: I put some of the speed tweaks back in -- the ones I had to take out for OT 1.1 Rusty Tucker: It should be able to transfer faster under high loads Rusty Tucker: or very fast connections Bob Nunn: I thought it was just me. It appeared much faster as I watched it last night. Bell South promises my ISDN today Bob Wright: <> Daniel Raguse: <> Bob Nunn: Hey Bob, Daniel! mikael fredriksson: <> Daniel Raguse: Hey! Bob Wright: Greetings to all! Rusty Tucker: Hi Mikael, Dan and Bob mikael fredriksson: Hi! Bob Wright: I think it must take an act of congress to get an HDS registration code....any tips from any one out there would be great! Daniel Raguse: We got ours in one day! mikael fredriksson: A email has worked for me.. Rusty Tucker: Mikael, did you get my v5.6 notes last week? mikael fredriksson: ? Bob Nunn: Tell Jon or Ken what you are doing Bob...with your school system etc. Bob Wright: How did you do it? I have sent FOUR emails to register and have received NOTHING in return Bob Nunn: You may have an old address? Ken.Sutherland@Highlander.net.uk Rusty Tucker: no? I emailed them to you at Bob Wright: I used the address that the plug-in says....jon_oauskey@..... something like that Bob Wright: jon paisley I mean Bob Wright: I talked to Ken last Friday in an IM and he said I would get it Friday.....I got NADA all weekend Daniel Raguse: Our webmaster had the same experience until we sent the request from my TF account. Bob Nunn: If you put a little drop of clear nail polish on the starter keys you won't get off like that. Bob Nunn: :) mikael fredriksson: we had a "minor" problem with our mail the QM Pro mailserver made 39000 extra index files.... its now fixed Bob Wright: heh Bob Nunn: Well Ken said he would be back on I just got off the phone with him. Bob Wright: RT: I think I have a solution for the address book problem we discussed last week Bob Wright: RT: Is it possible to add the ability to create folders to the address book....or would that feature consume too much time in programming? mikael fredriksson: RT: can you re send it to me? Rusty Tucker: its in your SI mailbox now mikael fredriksson: thanks Rusty Tucker: folders might be a bit of work, I'll have to think about it Bob Wright: k Bob Nunn: I would vote for folders too if possible. We have a mailing list that is quite large. Caused Jon some problems when I stuck my address book into my pub folder to use on the web. Rusty Tucker: I'm updating the SPML docs now, including a bit of missing info Bob Nunn: oooh new commands? mikael fredriksson: RT: have you mailed the release info to any web sites? Rusty Tucker: by folders, you mean to selectively display certain groups of addresses? Rusty Tucker: no i have not mailed it yet Kevin Shearon: <> Rusty Tucker: thought it would get better play as a "leak" by a user :) Bob Nunn: Yes like the bookmarks in Netscape? Perhaps simpler. mikael fredriksson: Ok "leak" on the way.. Rusty Tucker: drip, drip mikael fredriksson: ;) Rusty Tucker: mainly documenting stuff that was not documented before. Rusty Tucker: There is a new command #comment Rusty Tucker: it lets you put a comment in that won't be sent with the page Bill Gram-Reefer: <> Rusty Tucker: like: Bill Gram-Reefer: it's a FREAK Bob Wright: RT: by folders I mean I could have a folder named "Bob's Book" and another folder called "Rusty's Book" ...each with their own set of addresses. Rusty Tucker: Bob Nunn: Inspired by Maxxum? Rusty Tucker: regular comments still get sent Jim Smith: <> Rusty Tucker: does NetCloak have that feature? I didn't know Bill Gram-Reefer: you pal at rubber chicken would know Bob Nunn: I was on their web site after you put together the docs on how to use TF with NetCloak. Don't remember all of them. Rusty Tucker: I know they have "SHOW/HIDE" but that that's like #if Rusty Tucker: I'm considering a shareware SPML plug-in for WebStar, w/ source Bob Wright: Is there a way to do "this page was last updated on? and the date is shown? Kevin Shearon: RT: Is there any update on the status of TF? Rusty Tucker: yep, use #echo LAST_MODIFIED Rusty Tucker: it use it a lot Rusty Tucker: KS - 5.6 will be released very soon Bob Wright: Thanks! Bill Gram-Reefer: <--#echo var="LAST_MODIFIED"--> Ken Sutherland: <> Rusty Tucker: BW - in some pages I use the #flastmod command to show the last mod date of the #include file Rusty Tucker: out "whatsnew" page does that Kevin Shearon: I mean the long term plans, don't you think it's a big negative to attract new customers and keep old ones if the threat of discontinuation is a strong possibility? Rusty Tucker: "whatsnew.spml" is just a template around a file i export from FileMaker, it never changes, so LAST_MODIFIED isn't exactly correct. Rusty Tucker: so I use #flastmod "whatsnew.html" and that displays the last modified date of whatsnew.html, the file I #include Rusty Tucker: KS- yes I'm sure that you're correct about that Kevin Shearon: Are you going to keep it going, sell, or just toss in the towel? Rusty Tucker: The plan is to keep selling and supporting TeleFinder. Rusty Tucker: If someone comes along with $, then that's different. Rusty Tucker: For now, as long as there are customers, I've got product to sell Kevin Shearon: From what I heard you did get offers ($) Rusty Tucker: That's true, but none worked out comparing plan to plan. Bob Wright: I'm a customer :) Kevin Shearon: So how many new packages do you need to sell a month to make it worth your while? Kevin Shearon: What do you mean comparing plan to plan? Bob Nunn: Rusty do you think when Ken S. finalizes OAT you will start running it? Rusty Tucker: there's really no minimum to simply continue selling software Bill Gram-Reefer: RT, better get KS on NDN! Kevin Shearon: What's NDN!? Rusty Tucker: "plan b" is to continue selling TF. 95% of the customers really want the basic TeleFinder BBS ( for newspaper story and photo transfer, service bureaus etc ). Rusty Tucker: It does not take a lot of continuing R&D to address the needs there. Ken Sutherland: Hey rusty, how about the improved mail spam feature request Bob Wright: Is 2.6frec2 a time based beta? Rusty Tucker: So any buyout plan has to beat that plan to make financial sense Rusty Tucker: no time limit on FReC 2! Rusty Tucker: KS- it probably won't make it into 5.6, but I need to see how much work it would take Ken Sutherland: ndn, ? Bill Gram-Reefer: computerese for non-disclosure Rusty Tucker: BN - I'm going to move the server off-site soon. So I will run the bare minimum software. Kevin Shearon: Back to the basement? Kevin Shearon: :) Rusty Tucker: No basements in CA! I wish we had one :) Bob Nunn: Might be full of rain now though huh? Rusty Tucker: got that right, we had almost 8 inches of rain on Saturday! Kevin Shearon: Don't get me wrong, I'm all for making as much $ as possible, just think you should send out a news release to get your future, past and potential customers on the same wave length Rusty Tucker: knocked power out here briefly mikael fredriksson: RT: Do you have site for the server or do you need a place? Kevin Shearon: Hey Rusty my friend got a job in Newport, where is that? Kevin Shearon: Newport Beach Rusty Tucker: next town over! Kevin Shearon: Newport Beach Rusty Tucker: he's a neighbor then Kevin Shearon: he's working at some PGA golf course Ken Sutherland: and we thought you did a runner Rusty Tucker: Probably Big Canyon Rusty Tucker: Bill Davies has offered to let me plug in to his net. Kevin Shearon: may have to have a road trip to Newport Beach Rusty Tucker: wait for summer! Kevin Shearon: to hot, maybe late winter early spring Kevin Shearon: he says he has a place right on the beach Bob Wright: TF USERS' ROAD TRIP Rusty Tucker: can't be beat, we go there all the time in the summer Kevin Shearon: yeah, tax right off Rusty Tucker: maybe Pelican Hill, its new Kevin Shearon: He's working in sales, securing corporate sponsors for the PGA tour Rusty Tucker: don't give him my number! :) Kevin Shearon: they have Cadillac as a sponsor, gets to use Caddies unlimited Ken Sutherland: <> Ken Sutherland: <> Ken Sutherland: bugger bugger bugger, i hate dialup ppp Ken Sutherland: for all to read, i will be replacing the OAT archive with a slightly updated file which now includes payment details Ken Sutherland: later tonight Bill Gram-Reefer: <> Rusty Tucker: anyone have a "Secure MIME" email client? Daniel Raguse: <> Rusty Tucker: Andy Daws is having problems with Outlook Express & TF. But TF seems to be doing the right thing as far as I can tell. Ken Sutherland: rusty, could you write a client plugin that would offer an alternative to SSL? Rusty Tucker: I can do ANYTHING! :) Rusty Tucker: why do you want an alt to SSL? Ken Sutherland: well you wont write a SSL plugin because its to much work for you, maybe a simpler implementation could work Rusty Tucker: seriously, from a $ & time perspective, its cheaper to pay Netscape $10 and license their code. Rusty Tucker: $10K -- Ken Sutherland: how Ken Sutherland: ahh Ken Sutherland: only 20 licenses Ken Sutherland: maybe you would get 200 sales if you included it Ken Sutherland: just a thought Rusty Tucker: maybe, but probably not Ken Sutherland: anyone else care to comment Rusty Tucker: Just take a look at the numbers of Apache ( no SSL ) vs. Stronghold ( SSL ). Ken Sutherland: what about the SSL WebStar module, can it be added to tf Rusty Tucker: Here's an idea that I've kicked around with Chris... Jim Leary: <> Rusty Tucker: Make a standalone version of the TF Web Server, and sell it shareware, with source code. Ken Sutherland: full feature Ken Sutherland: price Bob Nunn: We were looking at running our secure server through a service and use telefinder to server the product links. We would buy it but we are only one company. Rusty Tucker: Haven't decided about price, or whether to do it. Ken Sutherland: a collective tf sysop site maybe mikael fredriksson: Or the other way around make it a "Intranet" server for commercial use. (www, mail) Ken Sutherland: all use virtual domains Rusty Tucker: I'd guess less than $200 for a single CPU license, with source. Rusty Tucker: the restrictions would be that you could use the source to modify as desired. Bob Nunn: We use it Intranet. Even our HP dumb terminals have email now. Ken Sutherland: what about ongoing support Bob Wright: RT: I have about 10 users online right now chatting, and the message buffer keeps getting full. Can this be increased? Rusty Tucker: IE - you'd need a separate license to create derivative products from the source. Rusty Tucker: again, the price on a royalty free commercial license is unknown Rusty Tucker: the "message buffer full" means that you have a message in the client queue that has not been sent Bob Wright: ahh.... Rusty Tucker: I don't think that its related to the number of users online Rusty Tucker: usually its related to a slow connection, or noisy modem connection. Bob Wright: Hmm.....ISDN slow...hmm... Bob Wright: ISDN noisy...hmm... ;-O Ken Sutherland: rusty, do you plan to upgrade windows client to support customer setting files? mikael fredriksson: why not make it a module based server that you pay for "mail", "www"," BBS" and that you pay for what you need activate in the server program Ken Sutherland: you have done a lot of good work recently\ Ken Sutherland: messy Rusty Tucker: MF- right now the 'module' that's bringing $ in the door is the BBS Rusty Tucker: In the past I've found that the simplest package is the easiest to sell. Kevin Shearon: I have gotten a lot of message buffer full, I think Rusty made a comment in one of the support forums about only holding 1k of data and no plans on changing it Ken Sutherland: thaws interesting since you have said recently you were concentrating in web only enhancements, are you having a rethink !!! Kevin Shearon: I agree, and have asked in the past to increase this so that someone who types 4 lines of chat stuff doesn't get this message Rusty Tucker: Yes, and no. Most of the buyers want a simple BBS, nothing more. Rusty Tucker: They are using it for basic file transfer. Rusty Tucker: So really need fewer features, if anything. Bob Wright: I just wish we could sit up the Web features of TF Server for easier web publishing Ken Sutherland: that sounds interesting Kevin Shearon: I think you are really on the right track with the way it's integrated with the web page. Our BBS is now totally linked on our web page the final piece was the HDS mail plugin, Jon revised it in b6 and it now sees files in drop boxes not just email attachments Bob Wright: I am not sure if this does not work, but can you just hit the PUBLISH feature on IE and have your files sent to TF? Rusty Tucker: Thanks, I think that's the eventual evolution KS. Jim Smith: RT: how about multi-file transfer (like -ug- FC)? Ken Sutherland: indeed Kevin Shearon: <> Rusty Tucker: JS - TF queues the xfrs and will upload and download simultaneously Ken Sutherland: we are on a roll the last few months, need a lot of feedback for interesting ideas and functions Rusty Tucker: anything more decreases performance by increasing overhead. Bob Wright: RT: publish feature? possible with TF? Rusty Tucker: I think that uses FTP Bob Bob Wright: RT: right... Ken Sutherland: rusty want a good idea to think about????? Rusty Tucker: JP is working on an FTP plug-in that will do the trick for you Rusty Tucker: ya Ken Jim Leary: <> Ken Sutherland: you want a easier way for users to config there setup, right Rusty Tucker: always! Bob Wright: Ken: one thing to think about HDS is the ability to include or NOT include the person's email when you reply Ken Sutherland: move the user config option onto a new menu after windows so user can config it easier Bob Wright: I use Web TV at home and check my TF email..when I hit reply I have to delete each letter of the email :-/ ...that' ain't fun Rusty Tucker: what user config option? Ken Sutherland: forwarding, a sig file,profile etc Ken Sutherland: it makes it MUCH more obvious Rusty Tucker: it sure would Ken Sutherland: when a user registers they don't as standard get a pub folder Ken Sutherland: point taken? Ken Sutherland: just a thought Bob Nunn: My big wish is to be able to edit a text file remotely without have to upload it. Rusty Tucker: it would take an upload and download, but the system could automate it Ken Sutherland: but if a new user got a text file as a new user telling them how to set it up it would be more flexible Ken Sutherland: have the pub folder but make it invisible to user client also slave the data to the client folder on the users machine Bob Nunn: It could make it easier for people to do things like put up a sig file etc. Ken Sutherland: it sounds basic but i think would be a great upgrade Ken Sutherland: exactly mikael fredriksson: And when you let a user have a web folder why not add standard web page for them in it? Ken Sutherland: give them a standard sig using users details including email address Bob Wright: I like the standard web page idea Rusty Tucker: It would be nice to have a "default" new user folder that UM would copy in when it creates a new user. Ken Sutherland: that would stop all those messages from users asking (what is my mail address (grin)) Bob Nunn: Cool idea! Ken Sutherland: exactly Ken Sutherland: please please please Bob Nunn: That way a sysop could set it custom for his system type! excellent Ken Sutherland: keep it coming bob Bob Wright: When I send out the user's login info, I have a line that says "Your email address is: login@domain" so I don't get those phone calls :) Rusty Tucker: you could also include a customized email at that time welcoming them Bob Wright: exactly, I wrote an email program which sends a welcoming email to all new users. This way you can answer a lot of question right up front Rusty Tucker: oh , so it would need to be somewhat scriptable Ken Sutherland: for your info, we planned to add this in automan but if you do it it saves us some drinking time Bob Wright: drink any way...it does a body good ;) Rusty Tucker: if you want they're email address embedded in it. Bob Nunn: Rusty I remember is a version of MS - that Chris put a reply.txt feature like a vacation mail or did I dream this. Bob Nunn: Back in the video chat days. Rusty Tucker: ? I don't remember it Bob Nunn: Not sure if we just talked or he did it. Think he did it. you put in a file reply.txt and it would automatically sent that out to all mail that the box received. That way if you were out it would give them a response. Rusty Tucker: I'd like to make that feature work from an AppleEvent, so that KS could hook a program into it. mikael fredriksson: maybe its still there ? Ken Sutherland: or add a feature in the User Manager that handles special mail accounts Ken Sutherland: thanks Bob Nunn: Would be good for business people. They could put a note in thanking the customer for their response. Not its not I tested it. tried reply.txt and autoreply.txt Rusty Tucker: when a new user is created, User Manager would send an AppleEvent w/ the username, and folder location to another program, like a CGI works Ken Sutherland: bummer Rusty Tucker: the other program would then do the work of setting up the folder. Bob Nunn: Sounds nice RT. Ken Sutherland: heheheh, do i remember this, how many times have we asked for the extra AppleEvent Rusty Ken Sutherland: we asked for this 8 months ago Rusty Tucker: only problem I see is that they could logon before the other prog would complete. Rusty Tucker: But, there is always the "automessage" Ken Sutherland: we want the feature to send a ae to a specified user on a specified node Rusty Tucker: didn't have time 8 months ago :) Ken Sutherland: shucks Rusty Tucker: huh? Bob Wright: automessage is a PAIN when you have like 75 different access groups like I do Rusty Tucker: you can send events to a specific node Bob Nunn: Think about the reply.txt feature too. Perhaps down the road a piece when you are thrashing UM? Bob Wright: guess how long it takes to configure 75 access groups for ONE auto message.....l;ong enough to NOT DO IT ;) Bob Nunn: Set up a user account with a mail forwarding for your 75 access groups. Rusty Tucker: I have a problem with 'vacation replies' Rusty Tucker: ever see them reply to mailing lists? Rusty Tucker: its not a pretty site :) Rusty Tucker: besides, with HDS mail, you're never on email vacation! Bob Wright: Bob N: the point is I may only want to send an auto to my teachers...or maybe only the elementary teachers...or maybe just the principals...etc Bob Nunn: Would like it to auto respond to customers Bob Nunn: Set up a user for each type with forwarding for each group. Ken Sutherland: <> Ken Sutherland: fu***ng ppp Bob Wright: Bob N: that is A LOT of work Rusty Tucker: you mean the autoreply would work only if the from address matched some list? Bob Nunn: Its only another user account. I take care of a lot of my user types this way. Send 3 or 4 copies to the appropriate group user account Bob Wright: its easier if I had an auto email that could be sent when I create a new user Bob Nunn: <> mikael fredriksson: Ken - any price set on HDS mail ? Bob Nunn: <> Ken Sutherland: yup $120 Ken Sutherland: bought via KAGI Bob Nunn: Time was up. No say I have an account called webmaster I would like a response that says something like thanks for your request. It will be processed shortly. Ken Sutherland: <> Bob Wright: RT: are there any old version of TF User around? Some of the machines in the school cant use more than 2mb of ram Ken Sutherland: will release a commercial version before Christmas we hope Rusty Tucker: I think what I'll do is make an event in UM that it will send when a new user is created, it will just pass the user name, to an application called Create User. Ken Sutherland: BOB N, as mention when i called u earlier, use Claris emailer and have a auto mail feature on that account Bob Wright: So I can pay KAGI? Rusty Tucker: in Mac TeleFinder User/Prior Versions, it goes back to 3.2.6 Bob Wright: ok..thanks Ken Sutherland: YUP, we will be posting a new archive tonight for OAT users so they can pay via KAGI and "HDS Mail for Telefinder" will also use KAGI for payment Bob Wright: Looks like I will be paying this week for HDS :) Ken Sutherland: nope Bob Wright: nope? ?( mikael fredriksson: Thanks that way I don't have to pay UK or Swedish VAT Ken Sutherland: as we have not released it commercially we will NOT accept payment for something not finished Rusty Tucker: why not? MS does:) Ken Sutherland: but will continue through its development to release beta keys Ken Sutherland: Rusty, tut tut Rusty Tucker: All I'm saying is that HDS seems to work. Ken Sutherland: Its just me, I'm very concerned about this sort of thing Rusty Tucker: why not release it now. and start on 2.0 mikael fredriksson: It DO work Ken Sutherland: we hope to have it in a few weeks Rusty Tucker: exactly Ken Sutherland: no, thaws not how i do things Rusty Tucker: do it NOW! its the right thing to do Bob Wright: well, I hope beta keys do not continue to take me TWO WEEKS to receive :) Rusty Tucker: its what your customers want you to do Bob Wright: basically my system has been shutdown for WWW email since Dec 4 :-( Bob Nunn: <> Bob Wright: I cant be playing "Find the registration code for beta version number x" when I have 17,000 users to support Rusty Tucker: as far as I can see, everyone here is willing to pay for the product as is. Ken Sutherland: ok, i will be back for the evening chat and will have talked to jon by then on a realistic time scale Rusty Tucker: that means its done. no longer beta. Bob Wright: exactly...I am wi lling to pay TODAY for HDS as it is RIGHT NOW :) Ken Sutherland: but we do have a few bugs still to sort out Rusty Tucker: Of course, Bob Wright: but as it stands...I have users who used it for about three weeks, and now cant use it Ken Sutherland: OK Ken Sutherland: I will do it Bob Wright: there are ALWAYS bugs.... Jim Smith: Ken; like I said "Programmer always want to add one more fix" Ken Sutherland: the new OAT will have a payment option for HDS Jim Smith: You have to draw the line somewhere. Bob Wright: so download OAT and then pay for HDS? Rusty Tucker: Shoot the Engineer and SHIP IT! ( sorry Jon, but it must be done ) Bob Wright: RT: exactly! mikael fredriksson: what will the price be for OAT+HDS Ken Sutherland: will re-release the HDS mail for telefinder archive as well Bob Wright: What about a registration code for me so I can get my users back to WWW email? 8-) Rusty Tucker: <> Ken Sutherland: BOB, i don't have the app keycode generator Rusty Tucker: <> Bob Wright: do ya know what its like to have 17,000 users calling you to say "I cant check my email anymore"???? Ken Sutherland: if i did u would have the code, jon is not in at the moment Rusty Tucker: let him Ship it, then you can get a really reg code. Bob Wright: Ken: I understand..... :) ....I have sent Jon two emails requesting the code..he never replies Bob Wright: TR: I am ready to buy it :) Bob Wright: TR = RT ;) Ken Sutherland: BOB, I'm sorry for any inconvenience Rusty Tucker: time to run guys Ken Sutherland: i will be handling both products for key codes Bob Wright: Ken: its no problem.....but push Jon to release it so Sysops don't have to go through what I am going through: users who have used something and now cant Rusty Tucker: MF - leak a note about HDS Mail when you leak TF :) mikael fredriksson: I will ;-) Rusty Tucker: we'll DRAG it out of these guys! Bob Wright: see you guys on Friday Rusty Tucker: see ya Rusty Tucker: <> Ken Sutherland: what time is the next chat Bob Wright: HDS SHIPS...spread the word ;) Jim Smith: <> Bob Wright: Friday at 2:00 EST Bob Wright: see ya...I gotta run Ken Sutherland: not tonight Ken Sutherland: what happened to the Tuesday night Bob Wright: Please check on the registration code for me Ken Sutherland: ok Bob Wright: I don�t think there is a chat tonight...have not heard ------------------------------------------------------------------ December 11, 1997 -- �Copyright 1997, Spider Island Software