---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Text of TeleFinder Chat from Tuesday, November 25, 1997 11 AM PST. In attendance: From Spider Island: Rusty Tucker, Sysops: Mikael Fredriksson, Bob Wright, Jim Leary, Jim Smith, Bob Nunn, Michael Davidson, Ken Sutherland, ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- mikael fredriksson: <> Bob Wright: <> Bob Wright: Greetings! Mikael Fredriksson: Hi! Bob Wright: I talked with Bob N earlier and he said he would be here Mikael Fredriksson: Ok Jim Leary: <> Bob Wright: Everyone is quiet today. Mikael Fredriksson: Yes waiting and waiting for Rusty Bob Wright: I talked with Bob N today around 10:00 EST and he said that he (Bob N) would be here. Jim Leary: guess some people have to work Bob Wright: Is anyone using the Online Assistant? Mikael Fredriksson: No, only use their www mail plugin Jim Leary: <> Bob Wright: Yes, I used that to. Its very nice. I hope they get another release out before Dec. 4. Mikael Fredriksson: I will need a new serial number before that.. Bob Wright: How is your server connected to the net? Jim Smith: <> Mikael Fredriksson: on 256k line at work, used to have a 64k leased line to my home Bob Wright: that sounds nice....I am using an ISDN line (128k) here. Mikael Fredriksson: hi Jim! Jim Smith: Hi! Bob Wright: Is Rusty going to make it today? Or is he always a bit late? Mikael Fredriksson: I missed the internet speed when I moved my system to work so now I have a ISDN line at home to call work Bob Wright: I wish I had an ISDN line at home! :-) Bob Nunn: <> Jim Leary: <> Michael Davidson: <> Michael Davidson: Hi all! Mikael Fredriksson: ISDN prices went down a lot the last year first 100.000 SEK in may 97 it was 8000 SEK and now 1900 SEK (divide by 7.6 and you get the $$$) I live in the country side 20 min. drive from Gothenburg Sweden Mikael Fredriksson: Hi Bob Nunn: Hey Bob Nunn: Was everyone late or is it just me? Mikael Fredriksson: In town ISDN was 3000 SEK last year Michael Davidson: Hey Bob, got your ISDN "pulled" and running? Michael Davidson: I definitely was late Bob Wright: someone pull me an ISDN line to my house 8-) Bob Nunn: Well they told me it was. They had a problem and didn't pull it. They gave me a $25 credit and are supposed to get back to it. Michael Davidson: I should be getting my 63K cable modem installed any day now ($40 month) Bob Nunn: I think it is the Pit Bull next door where the pole is. Michael Davidson: Get them a 12 pack Bob, maybe that will get them to do it. Bob Wright: haha Bob Nunn: Give the Pit Bull a 12 pack and maybe he'll let them in the yard Michael Davidson: That bull could hamper progress a little Bob Nunn: I shooting for Thanksgiving weekend to be up and running now. Bob Wright: Which ISDN Terminal are you using? Michael Davidson: I won't be "up and running" much this weekend...not after Thanksgiving dinner anyway! :) Bob Nunn: Bell South and an ASCEND box. Michael Davidson: 128 Bob? Bob Nunn: My ISP is a small company called WorldSpice and I got a buddy price for the monthly charge. Nope 64k is all I can afford. Bob Nunn: Beats my present 33.6k modem dedicated though. Michael Davidson: Does anybody here use cable modem yet? Bob Wright: 101.00 a month here for my ISDN line. Bob Wright: 101.00 a month for my ISDN line. Bob Nunn: I could have one but they really don't want to get into the dedicated line business Michael Davidson: $40 bucks a month for 63K seems too cheap for me to pass up Michael Davidson: Wow, 101 a month is the cheapest I have ever heard of ISDN, twice as cheap! Bob Wright: that's 101.00 for 128k Bob Nunn: Do you have dedicated IP addresses? Bob Wright: I have a class C license with the 101.00 a month Michael Davidson: Wow, that's almost unbelievable Michael Davidson: Where do you live Bob W? Bob Wright: Unlimited access. Bob Nunn: That is a good price. I pay slightly more than that. Bob Nunn: And only 64k at that. Bob Wright: I live in the Eastern part of Virginia, USA. Bob Nunn: Sounds like you got a break even price from someone trying to make his T1 payments Bob Wright: I get such a good price because I connect to the local NPR (National Public Radio) which offers discounts for schools. Jim Leary: $101???? Is that what you pay for ISDN on a home computer? or are we talking your place of business?? Jim Smith: Bob: Get ip-net-monitor, in the Sysop File: Misc; it has a very good tcp/ip monitor which will show speed. Michael Davidson: o, I figured it must be something special Bob Nunn: Yep I uploaded the latest version that is up on SI. Good program. Bob Wright: The connection is for the school system...if I did it for my house I would pay 30.00 a month PLUS .02 a minute. Jim Smith: That was one for the things I miss about FreePPP. Michael Davidson: .02 a minute adds up for full time connection Bob Nunn: I pay $29.95 a month no limit and $125 for my net connect. Jim Leary: Ahh. Whew...I thought you were doing that for home use. I was going to tell you to get out more often Bob Wright: Well, soon I will be connecting from home at 10mb a second for 35.00 a month unlimited time Michael Davidson: So B Nunn, how many clients do you isp with the 64K line? Bob Nunn: I am really only a hobby system. I have a few people who donate to the cause. I have 3 small business who are up on my site. Bob Wright: Local cable company is starting to offer cable modems with internet access for 35.00 a month Michael Davidson: Sounds good. Do they use PPP to dial your system or TF Jim Leary: I just pay $20/month, unlimited access with a regular modem. Its enough for my purposes. By the time 56K or ISDN is commonplace, the price will be way down and I'll grab it then. I can't see paying any more $$$ to get on the internet Bob Nunn: Cruising the net is one thing but running a web server is the deal for me. Michael Davidson: But if you need a full time dedicated connection Jim, you can't get it for $20 month Jim Leary: I work for someone, so at the office (which is where i am), I don't worry about those expenses. At home, I can't see a need for any more than i already have Bob Wright: I teach for a local college in town who provides me with FREE internet access (33.6) from home. I have never paid for Internet access. ;0 Michael Davidson: Bob Nunn, do your business clients use PPP to dial into your system or what Bob Nunn: Nope, I am not looking to do that yet. Ken Sutherland: <> Michael Davidson: I am too Bob, that's why I asked. Bob Wright: I have schools calling into me getting PPP access. Michael Davidson: Anybody here using VIG ?? Bob Wright: I use VIG Michael Davidson: Using what hardware/software Bob W Bob Nunn: Are you running it on the same server Jim Leary: Great. I'm sure the reason is that you use internet for some work related tasks. I don't, and again that $20/month gives me what I need. Anyone paying much more than that for home use, really needs to see the great outdoors more often and enjoy life a lit Michael Davidson: O, how do you like it? Jim Leary: a bit Bob Wright: I have a Power Mac 6100 for the PPP access. It used to be the old TF Server until I upgraded. Michael Davidson: VIG that is Bob Wright: Jim: nope, I use internet at home for pleasure only. Bob Nunn: I got to duck out guys work calls be back if I can. Have to make some large file copies Bob Nunn: <> Bob Wright: I put an accelerator into the 6100 so it runs at 88 mhz. Michael Davidson: Bob W, so you use VIG to allow for PPP access too your system? Bob Wright: Michael D: I use VIG to allow PPP access to my network. Michael Davidson: Do you wish you had a hardware solution for PPP instead of VIG, or are you happy with VIG? Jim Leary: Well, I really needed some info from Jon and/or Rusty, but I guess they have some work to do and that is where i should be instead of silly talk about internet access. After all, unless its for work, it really should just be a hobby, not an obsession. Goo Michael Davidson: PPP access to your network, but you don't allow for PPP access to the internet thru your system? Jim Leary: <> Jim Smith: <> Bob Wright: I am happy with VIG, but I would take a CISCO PPP server any day. Right now the machine functions well, but I need more ports for access. Bob Wright: Jim: everyone has opinions, but I don't see where any of this is silly. Michael Davidson: Do you have a 3 port license Michael Davidson: or do you mean physical ports? Bob Wright: I have unlimited nodes. Bob Wright: yes, physical ports Bob Wright: I only have 4 hurdler ports and two other ports for access. Michael Davidson: 6100 is hurting you there Bob Wright: but I have 16 schools who need the access Bob Wright: actually the 6100 handling the load just fine Michael Davidson: but it doesn't have enough expandability for more hurdlers Bob Wright: right, that is why I would like a CISCO PPP server. Michael Davidson: And a few other reasons!! :) Bob Wright: of course! :) Michael Davidson: Anyway, I am Very seriously getting VIG now that I have a cable modem Bob Wright: soon the strain wont be so bad on the ISDN line here, because the schools are getting sparc stations and I am going to set them up for Caching when they surf the net. Bob Wright: Michael D: you will like VIG. its VERY easy to set up. Michael Davidson: That's what I need. Is the support good. Their web page is very nicely done...lot's of details explained Michael Davidson: Do you have version 4 of VIG? Bob Wright: Its good to see Ken Sutherland here....I need a registration code for Online Assistant. I have sent three email requests and have not heard back from anyone. Michael Davidson: Ken........... :) Bob Wright: The support I don't think is all that good. I mean you will get to talk to someone, but they don't know that much about networking. Michael Davidson: Anybody possibly have a 10 Base T hub for sale Bob Wright: I have version 3.7.4 Ken Sutherland: bob, give me an alt mail address please Bob Wright: right now 4 people are connected and surging the net hard. The Max throughput on the machine is only hitting at 60% Bob Wright: Ken: rwright@pps.k12.va.us Michael Davidson: I attempted to buy a used 3.5.2 version (2 port), but the guy never got back to me. Bob Nunn: <> Bob Nunn: I'm back Bob Wright: I would not get anything under 3.7 Michael Davidson: wow, that's great Bob. So, you do allow them access to the internet thru your system, not just to your network Bob Nunn: Irritating when someone wants you do work Michael Davidson: Yes, I was definitely going to upgrade immediately to version 4 Bob Wright: Michael D: right...they can access the network or the internet Michael Davidson: Yea Bob, especially when you are working so hard at not working Bob Nunn: Now we know who to call when we need help configuring VIG Bob Wright: actually I am working VERY HARD right now; I am conducting a LIVE ONLINE chat on my TF server with some kids on my other computer. Michael Davidson: That's Wright...he gave us his email address even Bob Wright: I have four schools and 189 kids online who are all chatting with me on my server. Bob Wright: yes, you can email me...if I can help ya I will Bob Nunn: Screen dumps of configured systems work wonders. I never would have gotten newsgroups set up with out them. Michael Davidson: So with a 63K cable modem, and VIG, I want to provide ISP services to a few customers. How many sounds reasonable....I want to recoup some of my costs Ken Sutherland: <> Bob Nunn: Hey Ken, after OA. Probably a few hundred people depending on how many dial in lines you have Bob Wright: is VIG going to run on an independent machine? Bob Wright: The little kids here want to know if they celebrate Thanksgiving in Sweden...? Michael Davidson: Probably on the same machine that TF runs on Bob Wright: Well, that might slow it down a bit and I would not add more than 4-6 users for VIG. Michael Davidson: That is what I was hoping Bob Wright: Netscape users will be your biggest offenders. Imagine four people on a 28.8 link. Now imagine the same at 63K. Michael Davidson: One more big question, why not go with Vicom SoftRouter instead of VIG? Bob Nunn: Assuming you have 4 to 6 accesses for VIG you could support 4 or more times that since though. Bob Nunn: Not everyone gets on at once. Bob Nunn: In theory. Bob Wright: I used VIG because I had a machine I did not know what to do with which had a hurdler card installed. Bob Nunn: How many ports are set up Bob? Rusty Tucker: <> Bob Wright: They all get on here at once....! Michael Davidson: I can dedicate a machine to VIG, but I was hoping not too Bob Wright: I have five ports. Michael Davidson: :) Michael Davidson: Maybe you need my 4 port hurdler scsi box Bob W Bob Wright: Sure, send it to me...I take donations ;-() Bob Nunn: $10 bucks a month limited access for 25 users. $250 income. Rusty Tucker: hola! another school event today Michael Davidson: Hi rusty Bob Nunn: Don't miss a one Rusty, they grow up fast Rusty Tucker: u bet! Michael Davidson: So, what do you loose by using VIG instead of a hardware solution, anything that users will suffer from? Bob Wright: Well, you get an OS which crashes often Michael Davidson: Is VIG unstable? Bob Wright: I restart the mac about once a week...I know there is a problem with VIG because this machine was my old TF server and it never went down...I mean NEVER. Ken Sutherland: <> Michael Davidson: or are you just referring to MacOS Bob Wright: Of course tech support denies any problems Michael Davidson: Once a week is not bad at all. Bob Wright: no, I think there is a VIG or OS problem. Ken Sutherland: sorry about that, my ppp failed and refused to restart Michael Davidson: Rusty, what do you loose by using VIG instead of a hardware solution, anything that users will suffer from? Bob Wright: I like to think in terms of once a month for restarts. Bob Wright: anything less than that is not acceptable for me. Rusty Tucker: I read that First Class Internet Review ! Bob Nunn: Was going to ask you Ken what you guys will concentrate on next once OA is final. Michael Davidson: I wish to think once a month. Rusty Tucker: Man they really dumped on FC Ken Sutherland: rusty, new feature request>>>> Bob Nunn: Yep but from what I here from my buddies they deserved most of it. May convert a few if this keeps up. Michael Davidson: Where was that, in MacWorld Rusty? Rusty Tucker: yes its online Michael Davidson: I'll check it out for kicks Michael Davidson: How many stars did it get? Rusty Tucker: 3 Ken Sutherland: a super nova Bob Wright: FC is icky, IMHO Rusty Tucker: I think they called it useless Michael Davidson: Those fools. They trash something, give it three stars. They praise something beyond believe, they give it 4, maybe Michael Davidson: Believe-belief Bob Wright: Rusty: question for ya: If I had an icon selected for a path and I no longer what an icon at all, I cant not change it to blank (i.e No Icon). Its a small thing, but just thought you would like to know. Rusty Tucker: yeah 2 stars means its dangerous :) Bob Nunn: I never buy anything with 2 and you have to watch the 3 stars. Kinda relative though. Depends a lot on your personal needs. Ken Sutherland: Rusty, could you add a new feature to the user manager so we could have a access group with a restriction on the mail account, ie i want to stop some users being able to receive file attachments Michael Davidson: But then they give word 4 stars....yeh right! Rusty Tucker: I think I put the default icons in UM so you can select those Bob Wright: Rusty, but when I make an access for internal aliases, I don't need an icon, but the UM would not let me set it to blank. Bob Nunn: Bob W is using an older version Rusty. Bob Wright: its an aesthetic thing, but when I look at the screen, the only icons I want to see are the ones that users see Michael Davidson: Maybe we need a transparent icon Bob Wright: Bob N: no, I am using 5.6b3 Rusty Tucker: Its OK, it doesn't affect performance at all Bob Wright: err.. I mean b8 Bob Nunn: Oops you do got the new one. Bob Wright: right, I said it was a little issue :) Rusty Tucker: maybe I'll make the name of internal paths in italics Michael Davidson: What about having a way to set the default gateway depending on the access group; wouldn't that be handy? Bob Wright: also, it would be nice if when someone deletes an email with an attachment, it also deletes the file from the attachment folder. Bob Wright: <> Michael Davidson: Or asks if they want to delete the attachment would be better Bob Nunn: I wouldn't like erasing the attachment automatically. Bob Nunn: Perhaps the choice would be okay. Rusty Tucker: yeah, that might surprise a few :) Bob Nunn: Some of the early internet mail programs I used would do that. Michael Davidson: But you would have to work the choice in with the "Are you sure you want to delete" message Bob Nunn: Probably mess up Ken's feature of auto-mailbox cleaning. Michael Davidson: Speaking of dialog boxes, when one hits the mail button and is not connected, you get two dialog boxes, which should be combined into one. Rusty Tucker: I'll check that out Bob Nunn: Speaking as one who is ignorant of the latest Windoze TF version does it support attachments now? Rusty Tucker: yep, either 2.5 or 3 added that Rusty Tucker: 3.1 adds Find File Bob Nunn: And it properly handles all attachment types now? Rusty Tucker: ? Ken Sutherland: Rusty, how about the limiter request! Rusty Tucker: I'm not sure how that would be implemented Bob Nunn: Someone complaining about having to binhex stuff. I will find out more about it. Why do they call it apple double if apple has nothing to do with it. Ken Sutherland: the wonders of eworld Rusty Tucker: hmm don't know about binhex., Rusty Tucker: there was a time when mail server would binhex attachments for a POP3 mail boxy Rusty Tucker: now it uses MIME Ken Sutherland: time to go, if i can stay awake will be back later Ken Sutherland: night Rusty Tucker: They must've been using POP3, not the win client Michael Davidson: I better go too. See ya all later. Ken Sutherland: <> Bob Nunn: I will find out more about it. I don't have ready access to a windows machine and it makes me happy except for the occasional question. Rusty Tucker: If their using TF, the attachments are stored in the native file format Michael Davidson: <> Bob Nunn: We get international traffic. The Chinese version of Word etc is a lot of the problem. Rusty Tucker: :) Bob Nunn: It could be the type of servers the mail gets routed thru Bob Nunn: Gotta go. Put the logs up please. See you next time. Bob Nunn: <> Rusty Tucker: I guess that's it! Rusty Tucker: Did you keep a log Mikael? Mikael Fredriksson: Yes I think I have it Rusty Tucker: I think I have part of today, if you Rusty Tucker: have it, please email it to me. Mikael Fredriksson: How do i get it to save the chat window... ------------------------------------------------------------------ November 25, 1997 -- �Copyright 1997, Spider Island Software